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Thomas: Hi and welcome to the HSP World podcast. With each episode, we have a conversation about an interesting HSP-related topic. We’re not coaches or therapists we’re HSPs holding space with you. I’m one of your hosts, Thomas and your other hosts are
Rayne: and Rayne.
Robyn: Welcome back everybody to another episode. With me here today is Thomas and Rayne. And we’ve invited as our guest a text. We’re feeling a little bit literary this week. And we thought, why not go digging into a little bit of literature? Many things have been written actually about HSPs, about sensitivity. Many writers are themselves HSPs.
So we’re actually going to be looking at a text by a poet named David Whyte. And it’s a text that I think captures an experience common to a lot of HSPs. So just to give you a little bit of context, David Whyte is a poet who comes from, I believe he comes from England.
Although I think he says his background is also Welsh and Irish. And he lives now in the US but as far as I understand, he travels and works all over and, he speaks, he writes poetry, he writes prose. He has this beautiful voice. If you can get any of his audio books, I highly recommend it because it sounds even better in his voice, but we’re going to read one of his texts for you today.
It comes from a book called Consolations and it is a text entitled Besieged. If you’ve already read this text or if you prefer to read it on your own, you can skip ahead. But we’ll be reading it out for you today.
Besieged is how most people feel most of the time. By events, by people, by all of the necessities of providing, parenting or participating. And even, and most, especially by the creative possibilities they have set in motion themselves. And most especially, a success they have achieved through long years of endeavor.
To feel crowded, set upon, blocked by circumstances in defeat or victory is not only the daily experience of most human beings in most contemporary societies. It has been an abiding dynamic of an individual life since the dawn of human consciousness.
In a human life, there is no escape from commitment. Retreat to a desert island, and the lonely Islander will draw up Robinson Crusoe list to make the place habitable or begin building a raft to escape. Tell everyone to go away and they hang around wanting to know why. Earn a great deal of money to gain individual freedom and a whole world moves in for a share of the harvest.’
That’s the first section of the text. I think we’ll take a small break there to reflect.
Thomas: I just like what he’s saying about being besieged even by, or most especially by the creative possibilities that you’ve set in motion. You know, oftentimes we don’t think about the things that we ourselves have done to create the world around us, you know, the world that, that happens around us. So I really liked that, that he, he emphasizes that.
Robyn: It’s interesting because you know, when I read this text recently and thinking from the lens of an HSP I thought, okay. Besieged and overwhelmed, right? These are technically synonyms. They technically mean the same thing, to feel like just as he said, like set upon by everything around you, whether you’ve started it or someone else’s throwing it on you.
Um, you know, so we talk all the time as HSPs about overwhelm. And so it’s interesting, interesting to see a text dedicated to that, but the way he he’s writing about it, as he’s trying to say, well, this is universal. This is not just for sensitive people. If you are someone who’s gonna live out their creative possibilities and see them through, then that adds another dynamic to it.
But, he says, yeah, most people, most people are going to go through this. So I thought, I thought that was interesting too. This kind of like normalizing or universalizing of the problem of being overwhelmed.
And yeah, as you say, he’s trying to suggest that it’s inescapable, whether you’re putting it out there yourself, or it’s coming to you from the people around you, whether it’s positive or negative. Right? So if things, bad things are happening to you, you’re going to feel overwhelmed. If it good things. Sometimes you’re a victim of your own success. Right? So saying that as well.
Thomas: I think he’s trying to make a strong case of this is the human condition.
Rayne: See, and I, I, I get that. I get that, you know, I get that universally, it’s a human condition. When you said HSP lens Robyn, I started looking at it through that lens too. And yeah, I could see though where this could be somewhat more pronounced for an HSP in terms of just in terms of their senses.
You know, in terms of, say just going down the block to the grocery store, you know,
Rayne: that could be just a, nothing, no, you know, not an issue thing for, for any, even for an HSP, but the, but the fact is, is with a highly sensitive nervous system, you are picking up on more. And, you need to have your noise counseling earphones in place and
Rayne: all that kind of stuff.
Thomas: It’s it’s like our internal radios are on and tuned to all these different channels all at once. When we, when we go to the grocery store.
Robyn: Yeah. So it is, yeah. It’s well, and he is careful to say it’s most people, not all people are going to feel that, but yeah, most people, but then especially HSPs. I think as we, as we’ve often said on the podcast, right, it can be true for many people, but it’s probably even more true for those who are highly sensitive. Yeah. Less, less avoidable. Yeah.
And then it’s interesting that you picked up on the creative possibilities there, Thomas, that kind of caught my eye as well. But we’ve talked a lot off of the podcast about how each of us has these, we have other traits beyond our sensitivity that actually push us out in the world.
Robyn: So whether it’s being extroverted as I am. Rayne, I know you identify as a high sensation seeker. Thomas we’ve talked about multi potentiality, about being somebody with, you know, really diverse pronounced interests. So these are traits that are going to push you out in the world, right? To go make relationships, be around people, take on projects, take on commitments, take on high intensity experiences.
And so, yeah, even within yourself, you are going to be generating some of the stimulation. But that’s that’s I think where it gets so tricky. I think that’s why I wanted to have this conversation today because, you know, we spend a lot of time as HSPs talking about how do we manage overwhelm? How do we minimize overstimulation? Right.
But the answer is not to withdraw and stop doing things. Because if you do, then you’re going to neglect those other parts of yourself. You’re going to neglect the parts of yourself that long to be in community with people or to express creative visions or to try out high intensity things sometimes. So it becomes this real conflict of you can’t neglect that either. Right. And as you said, there’s no, there’s no escape from commitment.
Robyn: You can try. We’ve certainly tried several of us, but at the end of the day, that’s not a happy existence either. That brings its own set of problems.
Thomas: Well he even gives the example of being on a desert island. And the first thing you’re going to do is draw up a list to, you know, make the place habitable or to, to escape the island.
Robyn: Yeah. Yeah.
Rayne: It’s almost like finding the right amount of tension for yourself. Like whether it’s creative or, you know, discovering something or being curious about something it’s like, I guess, I guess there, there will be that underlying tension there that’s causing you to do that.
Thomas: And I’ve found, at least for me, I found that that it’s a lifelong learning and relearning.Like I I’ll get into a place of comfort. And then I push out and it’s like, oh, okay, that’s a little bit too much. I need to dial it back a little bit. And then it’s like, okay, that’s not enough. Now I need to dial it up.
You know? So there’s, so I’m always sort of relearning or figuring out, or I imagine I’m even evolving that’s in that sense that I’m, my sensitivity is probably changing.
Thomas: you know?
Rayne: Do you think it’s your sensitivity changing or your relationship with your sensitivity? That’s something I’m, I’m, I don’t know. It feels to me like, since I learned I had the trait, I’ve just had this evolving relationship with how I view sensitivity and how I view my own sensitivity.
Thomas: I think you’re right. I mean, I think it’s like, oh, you know, that little, that little message or that little twinge or whatever it is. It’s like, oh, that’s probably my sensitivity speaking. And the way that I respond to it is probably different now because I am aware of it where before I wasn’t.
Rayne: Right. Yeah. That’s what I was thinking. I think before I would just, you know, when that would happen, when my sensitivity would be speaking, sometimes not all the time, I would just kind of push it away, like, you know, because I didn’t recognize it. I didn’t recognize it for what it, you know, that it was my sensitivity. So I think for me the acceptance part took quite a while. It took quite a while. And it probably still is taking and there’s probably still parts of it that it feels to me, like I’m still learning how to embrace, I guess is the way to say it.
Robyn: Should we go to the next section?
Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. I’ll, I’ll read the next section here. If the world will not go away, then the great discipline seems to be the ability to make an identity that can live in the midst of everything without feeling beset. Being besieged, ask us to begin the day, not with a to-do list, but with a not to-do list, a moment outside of the time bound world, in which it can be re-ordered and re-prioritized.
In this space of undoing and silence, we create a foundation from which to re-imagine our day and ourselves. Beginning the daily conversation from a point of view of freedom and being untethered allows us to re see ourselves. To re-enter the world as if allowed to see it as if for the first time.
We give ourselves and our accomplishments, our ambitions, and our over described hopes away in order to see in what form they return to us. To lift the siege, we do our best for our children, but then at the right time, send them off with a blessing, no matter their perilous direction. We run a business while remembering as the overhead grows, how the enterprise was originally our doorway to freedom. We celebrate success, but realize that another horizon now beckons that we have in effect to start again many times over.
To get the measure of our success, we learn to call for an intimate close up interiority, rather than the hoped for unattainable and far and away. Besieged as we are, little wonder that men and women alternate between the dream of a place apart, untouched by the world, and then wanting to be wanted again in that aloneness.
Besieged or left alone, we seem to live best at the crossroad between irretrievable aloneness, and irretrievable belonging. And even better as a conversation between the two where no choice is available. We are both. Other people will never go away and aloneness is both possible and necessary.
Rayne: I love that.
Thomas: I love how he’s describing the balance between aloneness and living in the maelstrom, so to speak.
Rayne: Yeah. We seem to live best at the crossroad between irretrievable aloneness and irretrievable belonging.
Thomas: Isn’t that a wonderful statement?
Robyn: A little tragic too.
Robyn: It seems like a bit of an invitation to embrace imperfection and discomfort, which, yeah, I don’t know. As an HSP I, well, the way that I live out my sensitivity, often I like to have things just so. So it can be difficult to. I, I see that when he says, like, it’s, it’s a challenge that we’re invited to, right? It’s a challenge that we’re invited to wrestle with. This idea that, well, you’re never really going to succeed in getting the alone time that you needed in your you’re never going to succeed in belonging as much as you want. And, I see, yeah, I think it makes sense to imagine it as an ongoing struggle and ongoing conversation and negotiation. I think we were just saying that earlier, Thomas, like it’s something that you constantly work through in your, in your life.
Thomas: Well, I know that everybody has experienced the pandemic a little bit differently. What I can say is that when the pandemic happened, all of a sudden our house was now full. Because before where most of the household went out to work and I stayed at home as a self-employed person, now, all of a sudden the house is like always full. And so…
Robyn: You were besieged!.
Thomas: I was besieged by, by my family in that sense. And what he’s describing here is, is that like where, where is that aloneness that I was used to, you know? However, also as he described, I found that balance. I had to do a lot of rethinking about how to achieve the aloneness that I desired.
And so I found ways to do it. I’ve found ways to, to step out or to just, you know, go into another room and close the door or whatever it may be.
Robyn: A lot of it comes down to, well, discipline in part and giving yourself permission as well.
I think that’s something that I, I can struggle with, especially if it’s being besieged in a, in a social sense. It can be hard for me to give myself permission to say, okay, I’m going to go have that alone time. Because I feel well, I want to, I want to be on,I want to be in things, I want to be involved. When it can be hard to convince myself. Like, yes. Okay. You can still, you can, you don’t have to wait till everyone’s gone to get that moment.
Thomas: Yeah. And I’m sure that we also have many listeners who experienced the opposite. Which is when the pandemic happened, all of a sudden they were alone, more than they were before. And you know, that was, I’m sure that was difficult as well.
Robyn: Or besieged in another, sense with everything that happens virtually, and a lot of people felt overwhelmed by that.
Thomas: Yeah. Zoom fatigue.
Robyn: What do you make of this, that he says at the beginning here of that section. So being besieged asks us to begin the day not with a to-do list, but with a not to do list. A moment outside of the time-bound world, in which it can be reordered and reprioritized.
Thomas: Oh, that is so important. I mean, this is something that, that, that I have incorporated in my daily routine. And that is well, 10 minutes of meditation for one, but also, I set aside 25 minutes for a daydream, where I close my eyes and I just daydream. And that is a wonderful, as he describes, a moment outside of the time bound world, it’s so wonderful.
And, and sometimes I miss it and sometimes I just don’t have the time or whatever. And I sorta kick myself. I say, oh, you know, I didn’t get to do the daydream practice. For those of you who have not heard about that before, what I’m doing is essentially setting aside some time to close my eyes and empty my thoughts and just invite ideas and inspirations in.
In my case, it’s about creativity. You know, creating art or creating sculptures, whatever. And so, it’s a way to escape the siege of work and family and news and all the other things and social media and all of those things. It’s an escape for me, but it’s also just a wonderful way to, as I see it as sort of regenerative because it’s, it’s, there’s something new coming in. As I, as I close my eyes and just imagine different things. So that’s what that’s about for me.
After the break, we talk more about the practices that can bring, a bit of aloneness into our besieged day. We’ll be right back, after this.
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Robyn: Yeah. I mean, it’s funny because he’s not, I feel like there’s not very many ways to interpret this. It sounds almost like he’s really saying we need to have practices that are not just about simply getting things done and engaging in all the activity and that you need to start your day.
So it almost sounds like he’s prescribing, you need some kind of morning practice. That’s kind of calming or centering before you go out. And it’s a bit surprising cause he’s not usually that concrete in these reflections. But I mean, I’ve, I’ve been playing around with that too. And, uh, I do notice a difference.
For me it’s about if I make sure to stretch in the morning and really doesn’t have to be very long, but getting a minimal amount of that in, and then also having some time to. I don’t think it’s a kind of daydreaming per se, but really to, I think the best word for it is just to study, but to study whatever I want to study, not anything that’s been prescribed to me by somebody else. So to pick up a book that I’m engaged in, or to listen to podcasts that have some big ideas I’m interested in, but just to do some deep thinking or reading or whatever.
And for things that really are personal interest. I think if I were assigned something in a class and I started my day like that, that, that wouldn’t feel right. I really need that like intellectual freedom in the morning. It’s funny, like just doing that for maybe 20 minutes, half an hour, it just, just sets the tone of the day. And it does feel like a little bit of freedom and a little bit of standing outside of all the busy-ness and getting in touch with something a little bit more, something a little bit deeper. And it just, yeah, it’s so much easier to then go into a busy schedule if I’ve had that moment.
Thomas: I like his choice of words. He calls it this space of undoing and silence.
Thomas: And he says It’s the point of view of freedom and being untethered that allows us to re see ourselves.
Rayne: Well, you know, you know what this is reminding me of it’s reminded me of, how busy-ness has been something that in our culture, I, and I’m just speaking of North American culture, but being busy all the time all the time is a good thing.
Robyn: Okay. Yeah.
Rayne: And maybe for some people it is, I don’t know.
But it’s almost as if he’s saying there is no creativity in, in living our life in a state of busy-ness.
That we have to take those breaths, where we’re not taking in information, where we’re simply processing information. Where those times where we’re not even thinking about that information or, or anything, you know, and giving it the time that it requires to basically come about in a way that you’re looking for. That you know is going to be helpful for you. It’s like, those answers won’t be found in busy-ness, you know. Busy-ness will kind of pull those answers away, but in order to get those answers, like he says, you do need to create those moments and those spaces in time, to give yourself that opportunity.
Robyn: Yeah. So I feel like he’s you know, first off telling us, we have to accept that some kind of, some level of overwhelm is always going to reach us.
And then he’s saying, you know, but that means we need to develop practices or find ways and points in which we can escape that.
And then. Yeah. So then he describes different things.
So it could be taking a moment in the morning. It could be, like not, over-parenting, not helicopter parenting, right? So saying, okay, at some point I just got to let my kids do what they’re going to do and wish them the best.
Or gratitude, right. So if you’re, if you have your own business and you are just having a really here, really in the thick of it and just kind of having a moment of gratitude to say, wow, okay. At least I get to be having a very successful business. Like in some ways it’s a good problem. Right.
And then also, but then also what do you make of this line? When he says to get the measure of our success, we learned to call for an intimate close in interiority, rather than a hoped for unattainable far and away. Yeah.
Thomas: That almost strikes me as saying, to remain in the present, in a way.
Rayne: It’s like honoring that things are going to be continually changing. It’s like we set a goal and say, if we reach that, you know, if I reach that goal, that’s, I’ve succeeded in that goal. And the thing is, is there will always be goals. You know, there will always be, you know, we will always be, trying to improve or learn more and you know, that kind of thing. Right.
So I like that he’s saying that to get the measure of our success, we learned to call for an intimate close interiority rather than a hoped for unobtainable far and away. So something, um,
Robyn: Yeah. So even if you set a big goal, you don’t measure your success just based on that lofty goal. And you say, okay, let me see what’s actually happening moment to moment, day to day. What are the small steps that I’m taking and how does it feel? Right. What, what can I feel in terms of progress? Right.
And, and yes, of course, by all means set big lofty goals, but don’t measure your feeling of success based on that. Right. And I think that’s a good, that’s a nice piece of advice to avoid burnout as well. Right. When you’re constantly setting the bar really high. And when you’re constantly making about what does it look like? Or what is it from the outside what’s happening? Yeah. Cause if you don’t balance that out with like the small wins or the steps that you’ve been taking continuously. And also just the, the feeling, the small, almost imperceptible changes to anybody, but you, right.
Or someone who’s seen you go through the process. If you don’t recognize that, then it’s, it’s going to be a thankless task, whatever goal or task you’re involved in. It’s going to be thankless and, and joyless. And you will feel besieged right. By, oh, why do I have to do this big thing? You know, I think maybe you have, I’ve had that experience for sure.
I send myself a lofty goal and it’s really difficult to achieve. And then I’m thinking, why the heck did I ever get involved in this? Right. It starts, I start feeling beset upon by my own… Yeah, we were talking about a project I had earlier and I had moments of feeling like, oh my God, why did I get myself into this mess?
It’s so there’s so much work. I’m not going to have time, you know? And it’s only if I stop and think, wow, I’m so happy that I have a chance to work on this project. Or, wow, I’ve noticed the difference in myself. Between, you know, I see how far I’ve come to be able to even do this project. Wow. And it’s when I, when I keep that in mind, then it feels wonderful.
And so, yes. So then, then I can live in that space where I feel tired. I feel tight for time. I feel busy and conflicted, but I’m not drowning. I’m not burning out because I’m also holding onto the parts of it that are nourishing and joyful.
Thomas: Yeah, I’d I don’t nearly draw upon gratitude enough as I should. Just calling on gratitude, just, you know, understanding, it’s like, wow, what a, what a great place to be in what a great time to be alive.
Robyn: Gratitude and awe.
Thomas: And awe, yeah.
Rayne: That ties in really nicely actually with the last paragraph of a besieged. He says:
‘Creating a state of aloneness in the besieged every day may be one of the bravest things individual, men and women can do for themselves. No mezzo, in the midst of everything, as Dante said to be besieged, but beautifully, because we have made a place to stand in the people and the places and the perplexities we have grown to love.
Seeing them, not now as enemies or forces laying siege, but as if for the first time, as participants in the drama, both familiar and strangely surprising. We find that having people knock on our door is as much a privilege as it is a burden. That being seen, being recognized and being wanted by the world and having a place in which to receive everyone and everything, is infinitely preferable to its opposite.’
And that one almost, it’s almost the feels like it’s just the end sentence. All this feels like it leads you right into the state of, thankfulness.
Rayne: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Robyn: I like the sense of drama that he brings into it. You can kind of feel it in those words. You can, you can feel like, yeah, that’s, that’s what it is. The state of tension that we’re always in, know, to wish for it to be otherwise it’s basically to wish from the end of your life, right? Because it’s not, it’s not escapable.
But I, I like that really hits home for me a lot because oh, that made me think a little bit about one HSP in my family, who would often engage in, in the language of being beset upon. Right. So saying, oh, people are coming over. Oh, they come up. Oh. And they’re going to take so much time and energy and it could be loud and oh, I’ll have to get ready for the, oh, we have to, oh.
You know, often like complaining about all the downsides of being overwhelmed. And I, I get it. I understand. I absolutely, you know, can, can relate to that as a highly sensitive person myself. But I think what often gets lost in that, you know, because then you, then you go into victimization, you own to feeling like the victim. And then the logical solution to that is you just don’t want to be around anyone ever. Right.
And I think in the case of this person, it is someone who is happy having a, a lower level of, like a calmer social life, a quieter social life. And that’s fine. We need to do that. Right. If you’re probably, if you’re getting angry all the time, your lifestyle is probably not one that suits you.
So it’s, it’s fair to take that seriously and say, what can I do to get to a place where I’m not irritable all the time. Right. But I think this is just a good reminder that those, the two poles always do exist and you can’t have one without the other.
And if you are feeling constantly irritable about something, you should take that seriously and say, okay, does this mean that I’ve just been accepting something that I’m not happy with and that I really don’t want to do anymore? And you cut it out? Or you say, have I just been forgetting that it is an opportunity, even if it is a lot, it is an opportunity. It’s something great. And you, you go on to the side of appreciating what’s positive.
Rayne: Um, yeah, for me, I think, I agree with his, with the first sentence. ‘Creating a state of aloneness in the besieged everyday, maybe one of the bravest things a person can do for themselves.’ It does feel like that to me sometimes. Right, because it’s very easy to just jump into the day and jump into the to-do list and jump into it. You know, speaking as an HSS, I, I’m geared to do that kind of sometimes. Right. But I, what I really like about that is that, I don’t really know how to explain it. But it feels for me, like by creating that state of aloneness in the besieged every day, creating that is basically it it’s almost like it becomes my life raft. You know?
So on the surface it looks like something optional, you know, you can do it, you don’t have to do it, that kind of a thing. But it’s not true, actually.It’s not a surface thing. It’s actually a very deep, um, it’s like having a good, deep understanding of uh, what’s, what’s going to be needed to, to keep that boat, you know?
Thomas: It’s part of self-knowing,
Thomas: It’s part of knowing, knowing yourself in a deep and intimate way. It reminds me of a friend who would come over. It was a, a work colleague and we would have party and there were many different work colleagues over and after about an hour and a half or two, he got up and said, ‘okay, um, it was great seeing you all, gonna go now.’
And that’s because he knew himself, he knew exactly what his needs were. And he had found that balance between being with people and being alone. He knew exactly where that balance was. And he didn’t feel any shame about it. It’s like, he didn’t have to explain himself, you know, he said, no, I’m just going now. I’m good. You know, I, I got my fill and it was lovely to see you all, and here I go, goodbye. Boom.
And he wasn’t, he wasn’t a, a man of long goodbyes either. I mean, he just said, okay, I’m going now. It was great. See ya. And, and, you know, one of the by products of that is that he was always, everybody enjoyed being around him because he knew himself. Right. There just was the comfort level. He was comfortable with himself, so we could be comfortable.
Rayne: Yeah, well put that there, there’s quite a bit to that.
Thomas: I think the challenge for HSPs is that self-knowing. Of finding that balance. Here are my sensitivities and here’s where I need to withdraw. And here’s when I can participate and collaborate. And finding that balance, once you find that comfort level, the world becomes comfortable with you.
Rayne: Yeah. Yeah. Well said, Thomas. I agree. Well that was really cool guys.
Rayne: I liked having this chat about it because you often hear because 70% of HSPs are introverted, you know, it’s pretty, it’s funny to make jokes and laugh and say, oh yeah, well, I could easily move to a, you know, a log cabin in the middle of the forest where, remote mountain somewhere.
Robyn: But yeah, I think we learned during the pandemic, it’s, it’s harder. Even the introverts got lonely. Right. And the introverts were like, ah, I need people. I need to go out. So. You know, and then, and then recognizing that we may have other traits that not only, not only is it a necessity to, to engage sometimes, but some of us have traits that push us to engage deeply and intensely. Right.
So the drama gets even more heightened, right? Because you’re going to need real big periods of withdrawal, or you have a real need for withdrawal and a real need for engagement.. And it’s just always going to be that back and forth.
Rayne: Finding that balance,
Rayne: Checking in with yourself.
Robyn: But I think the more we own it, the easier it becomes.
Rayne: I agree.
Thomas: Finding those little oasises during the day.
Thomas: I like that idea.
Rayne: Me too.
Robyn: Well, thank you, Thomas, thank you, Rayne. For our listeners, if you are interested in seeing that text it’s, as I said, by the poet, David White, W H Y T E, and it’s available, I believe on his Facebook page, but also in the book Consolations, the solace, nourishment, and underlying meaning of everyday words.
Very beautiful, sensitive book. So please do join us for our next episode where we’ll be having another interesting HSP conversation. And to any highly sensitives who have a burning HSP-related question, big or small, we invite you to ask it on the HSP World podcast, just email info at HSP, dot world. And a friendly reminder to visit the HSP World website at hsp dot world.
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